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 The Honourable Souls Forum Index » Rants » I am so sick of the OMG your blm we don't want you.
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PostPosted: Sun May 13, 2007 4:37 pm    Post subject:  Reply with quote  

Ceres
Antica Addict


Joined: 01 Dec 2006
Posts: 161

Interesting topic.

The thief job still has issues. Square realizes this, hence Assassin, dagger damage boost, etc. But as has been brought up in this topic with good points on both sides, split SA/TA not a perfect solution, but neither is stacked.

Any job that requires other people to be on-point to do its damage is flawed IMO. Other DDs are simply auto-attack, WS, and they can achieve their best damage mostly independent of the party. Even dragoon has some advantages over thief, especially in the freeform parties of endgame today.

I think the answer is to make thief more like the Warcraft rogue class, which is not totally dependent on Backstab, but I dunno.

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PostPosted: Mon May 14, 2007 4:11 am    Post subject:  Reply with quote  

Nimdae
Dog Food


Joined: 13 Feb 2006
Posts: 2238
Location: Texas

Honestly, I don't care what the best combination of stuff is. What I care about is if you can do your job effectively. If your play style makes assassin not worth using, then so be it. If your play style splits SA and TA, then so be it. I've played with various thfs with various play styles, some worked out very well for them, some were obvious that they were attempting to do something someone told them to do.

As for the drg reference (you should have seen this coming Wink ), a drg has advantages over every other job, just as every other job has advantages over drg. There's only two jobs that can shed hate after building up too much (yes, I would build up a lot of hate, sometimes end up tanking), thf and drg. Thing is, they can do it VERY well together. They can SC together, and nail the mob onto the tank.

I'm not much of a numbers guy, I was more interested in making sure things worked right. However, I was all for helping others maximize their numbers (SC -> MB).

A job that sits and auto attacks and that's about it is more flawed than a job that needs assistance from others, especially with the way this game was designed.

Of course, I never even made it to 70, so what do I know Wink
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PostPosted: Mon May 14, 2007 1:50 pm    Post subject:  Reply with quote  

Wumyamya
Ulmia's Soulmate


Joined: 13 Feb 2006
Posts: 2329

I think the whole point of the THF discussion is that people have different playstyles, which is true for any job. It's certainly true on WHMs, where some WHMs prefer to cure bomb as their playstyle, and others prefer to make full use of the regen line of spells. Certainly, which method is best (*cough*regen*cough*) is situational, but it also does depend on personal preference in playing the job.

On bard, which is another job where player cooperation is critical, I always felt part of my job was to adapt to what the party needed rather than completely impose my will on the entire party. THFs required me to hold off on melee songs until SATA was done, or put etudes on the THF. PLD tanks required me to attempt to organize the party so I could hit the people who needed it with ballad. If the PLD wouldn't cooperate, or had reasons for not wanting to stand with his back to the mages, I sang two rounds of ballad or had the PLD come to the mages between fights. And I always kept strength and dexterity etudes ready for those melee who got out of place from time to time. There are certain ways I like to play bard, and I would strive to do that, but sometimes you have to be flexible, and use all the tools at your disposal rather than just the ones you want.

For parties that absolutely refused to meet me halfway, they got songs like Scop's Operetta and Herb Pastoral and if they didn't notice, I would leave.

I will say, having been an outside participant in SATA as a WHM, I would say a huge part of the player base can't do SATA efficiently and that's a problem for the party as a whole, not just the THFs. First voker should never NEVER go into the red. If they are even going into the orange you're taking far too long to get SATA off and it's hurting the party. I can't tell you how many SATA setups I was forced to spoil because they took too long and the first voker nearly died. That is not efficient. Once SATA stopped being so OMGWTFWEMUSTDOTHISORDIE!!!!!!!! in the 60s, life got a lot better, for both my WHM and BRD.

Wumy
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PostPosted: Mon May 14, 2007 1:59 pm    Post subject:  Reply with quote  

Alananir
DocWilco


Joined: 12 Feb 2006
Posts: 3656

I've only ever been in one party where SATAs were smooth as silk. This involved a SAM, NIN and THF. SAM had first voke, with Third Eye and a Stun from me, NIN and THF got into position fast and SATA got off smoothly.

However, this was a static, in which I got to come along as pickup BLM for 2 rounds of Crawler's Nest. (Level 56ish).

But then, we were in a spawn spot of a Crawler Hunter, and they had it down pat with one guy using a timer to track respawn of the Scorp. These guys were good, and had played together for a long time.

Actually come to think of it, there was one other party where it was smooth. It was a static with me, Yuron, Sladejacobs, Wumyamya, Nimdae and a tank (Erilan, Kiet & Wakko.) As you can tell, all names of people who know their shit.

Outside of friend/LS statics, you rarely find people who play this well. And you can say "But I build my own parties". Fine, not all of us have the friends/time to do that. Or are too polite to kick people who don't perform.
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PostPosted: Mon May 14, 2007 3:03 pm    Post subject:  Reply with quote  

Shef
Jailer of Lulz


Joined: 12 May 2006
Posts: 436

As Doc had heard my rant, to the point where he told me to shut up, parties just aren't what they used to be, and it is obvious why.

I was in a tp burn working on colibri as RDM, and they had to be the most incompetent group i had in ages.I did absolutely nothing. Refresh, haste, afk to make forum posts and watch ghostbusters. DRK didn't know how to use souleater, PLD didn't know how to time cures and cover, MNK would use TP as soon as crawlers would cocoon, smn would AFK and not rest, cure on top of PLD's cures, use incorrect elements on the birds.

HOWEVER, we still pulled 7k an hour no down time. Why should this happen?

I used to care about my parties doing there jobs. On RDM, I just want 75, and when I level rng and pup i'll start forming my parties again, and go to fun places like Ro'meave, Onzozo for exp.
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PostPosted: Mon May 14, 2007 4:06 pm    Post subject:  Reply with quote  

Squitt
電 話 武 士


Joined: 17 Feb 2006
Posts: 3608
Location: Delaware, Ohio

I want parties there ; ;
Sylver and I couldn't pay a group to go exp outside of ToAU areas. We're always looking at camp options and when we ask the group if they would like conquest points or imperial standing points the answer is always the same... {Bird} {Please}

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PostPosted: Mon May 14, 2007 4:25 pm    Post subject:  Reply with quote  

Wumyamya
Ulmia's Soulmate


Joined: 13 Feb 2006
Posts: 2329

Although, Doc, there was that horrified "OMG I TRICKED ONTO THE BARD!" moment in Altepa while Slade was leveling THF. ^.^ I learned my lesson that day.

Wumy
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PostPosted: Mon May 14, 2007 4:44 pm    Post subject:  Reply with quote  

Neovilla
Bird Basher


Joined: 17 Feb 2006
Posts: 2593
Location: Oceanside, CA

I have trick on some brds on my day XD and whms. Can't help it they are running back and forward but its always a good laugh. Laughing
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Neovilla: http://www.ffxiah.com/player.php?id=132283


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PostPosted: Mon May 14, 2007 6:03 pm    Post subject:  Reply with quote  

Nimdae
Dog Food


Joined: 13 Feb 2006
Posts: 2238
Location: Texas

What I've disliked about thfs lately is when I played drg/sam, I couldn't voke, and the thf gets mad because they want to trick onto the tank and I can't get hate on a whim. I always try to get them to trick on me, then I'd dump hate, but I've only had one or two parties where the thf would cooperate (and they were good too).

It's not so much that you should know your own abilities, but it helps to know others abilities too. It seems like FFXI has turned into a single player game where you just happen to play with other people, because everyone tries to do their own thing rather than work together.

I remember those static parties and that was a lot of fun simply because we played as a team.
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PostPosted: Mon May 14, 2007 11:19 pm    Post subject:  Reply with quote  

nala
Weaver of Misfortunes


Joined: 05 Mar 2006
Posts: 790
Location: silverdale washington

heh i rember one party in bibiki bay, where i had a noobish moment good thing no one else caught it, i didnt know that /thf trick attack didnt add any dammage to the sc, so my sc partner was a drk he was the closer, we had pld tank so i was only TA'n him sa wsing, and then the drk was sataing onto me to close the sc, and i would hide to lose hate.

shortly after i learned that TA doesnt add dammage /thf.

also a few of the aforementioned stories remided me of why we might have slipped into the current situation we now face with parties.

this was also in bibiki bay, i dont rember exact setup think we had a pld whm blm rdm forgot my sc partner, anyways this rdm was named DRY and i will forever rember him/her as the worst rdm EVER, every mage in my pt had some kinda refresh gear already minus maybe the pld pre parade gorget (mighta had hurculese ring i think it is?) any ways.

here is the deal this rdm all he would do is cast refresh on each mage/magic user 1 debuf then /heal the rest of the fight, now the rest of the party was very skilled and xp per hour was awsome, and i loved this party... almost, this rdm was a taru tons of mp and such, never once did i see his mp drop belowe 90%.

as a thf i am acustom to doing everything i can to maximize my utility to the party, so maybe i was just over reacting, but our xp/hour coulda been so much better if this rdm had just nuked a bit, enfeebled a tad more, assisted curing some or something. yet not a single person in our party cared though i constantly confronted him about it openly in party chat, in fact most of the others responce was i dont care he keeps refresh on me the whole time....

to me this kinda player attitude may have lead us down this path once the really easy xp started comming from toau areas, rather its alright to be mediocre, we still get xp plus he keeps refresh on... any ways this is what i think on this issiue.
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PostPosted: Mon May 14, 2007 11:38 pm    Post subject:  Reply with quote  

Alananir
DocWilco


Joined: 12 Feb 2006
Posts: 3656

Wumyamya wrote:
Although, Doc, there was that horrified "OMG I TRICKED ONTO THE BARD!" moment in Altepa while Slade was leveling THF. ^.^ I learned my lesson that day.

Wumy


SATA Viper Bite, wasn't it? Yeah, iffy moment, but we pulled through.

I also remember a certain SATA Dancing Edge on you, while me and Nimdae were casting Freeze, in Onzozo, getting me stuff for Samurai.
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Elemental Magic Skill 8/8 Lightning Magic Potency 4/4 Ice Magic Potency 3/3 Fire Magic Potency 3/3 MP 5/8
Freeze II 1/2 Burst II 1/3 Flame II 1/2 Flood II 1/1 Quake II 1/1 Tornado 1/1
Great Katana 8/8 Critical Hit Rate 4/4 Meditate 5/5 Store TP 5/5 Overwhelm 5/5 Shikikoyo 1/? Blade Bash 1/? STR 3/5
BLM75 SAM75 NIN66 WHM44 WAR40 RNG38 RDM37 THF37 DNC37 COR21 MNK20

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PostPosted: Tue May 15, 2007 2:43 am    Post subject:  Reply with quote  

Striker
I has Kikoku!


Joined: 23 Feb 2006
Posts: 1328

Doc: I'm currently a 68 THF/WAR ( yes I'm not subbing nin, unless I go lfp and the leader tells me to ) And the last time I lvl'd it was about 2 months ago now.
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